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Post by Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers on Feb 1, 2011 10:29:36 GMT -8
I did not look at RP versus SP. That would be interesting, especially if Innings Pitched skew the SP as better than RP. If that happened, the easy option would be to increase saves and holds.
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Post by Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters on Feb 1, 2011 11:28:44 GMT -8
No worries on the long winded note. 1. Good catch on that, that was supposed to be -1, not .1 2. I haven't had a chance to dig into last years scoring to see how the NH/PG played out, but as soon as I do I'll report back.
I love the in-depth breakdown!
I think the pitching should be a touch lower than hitting, in my opinion. When you broke that down, did you notice if the majority of the bad pitchers were starters or relievers? If relievers, I will see about adjusting them. If it is all starters, then I think thats OK. The fact that the lower tier is lumped together, combined with the limit on claims per week, should eliminate streaming, as you'll purely be playing matchups. If a team loads its reserves with SP's, its basically loading up on bad players who will be largely inconsecuental points-wise. 150 points spread out through 25 weeks - 6 pts/wk. Keeping extra offense would be a smarter move. Of course, after typing that, I can see how the balance could totally swing to hitters, as it would be more worthwhile to carry a teams 5th OF than 5th SP, as you'd get more points from it.
So I will continue to play with the numbers later today - hopefully I/we can get this figured out and set in the next day or two. I do think we're on the right path though...
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Post by Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters on Feb 1, 2011 11:29:57 GMT -8
I did not look at RP versus SP. That would be interesting, especially if Innings Pitched skew the SP as better than RP. If that happened, the easy option would be to increase saves and holds. Haha... you posted that right as I was asking you that very question!
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Post by Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers on Feb 1, 2011 14:10:29 GMT -8
Quick question pitcher scoring in the past. Did SP often get negative points for a bad start? Just a question since I could see how it could happen. In my opinion this is OK when they are out before 5 innings or get blown out, but there should be some points for an average outing (whether they ultimately win or lose).
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Post by Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters on Feb 1, 2011 14:33:02 GMT -8
For a bad loss they would generally get negative points. If they at least hung around for 5 innings and K'd a guy or two, they'd get a few positive points. I think the worst was a -13 or so, 1ip, 8runs, 0k, 1L. Something along those lines.
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Post by Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters on Feb 1, 2011 14:46:48 GMT -8
Further tweaking has led me to this:
Pitching Categories Setting BBI - Walks Issued (Pitchers) -.5 points BS - Blown Saves -3 points CG - Complete Games 4 points ER - Earned Runs -1 point HA - Hits Allowed -.5 points HB - Hit Batsmen -.5 points HD - Holds 2 points HRA - Home Runs Allowed -1 point INN - Innings 1.5 points IRS - Inherited Runners Scored -1 point K - Strikeouts (Pitcher) 1 point L - Losses -5 points NH - No-Hitters 15 points PG - Perfect Games 25 points RL - Relief Losses -4 points RW - Relief Wins 7 points S - Saves 6 points SO - Shutouts 5 points W - Wins 10 points
With the above, pitchers are slightly less valuable than hitters, as should be in fantasy baseball land, but not so much so that the lesser talents are completely worthless - at least at first glance. Feel free to further investigate, as I can't dig deeper into it until later tonight.
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Post by Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders on Feb 2, 2011 22:05:53 GMT -8
That looks pretty good Chris. Yeah, i believe that is the norm in FBB, hitters worth slightly more than pitching.
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Post by Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers on Feb 3, 2011 16:40:08 GMT -8
I took a quick look at RP versus SP. In general, the top 20 pitchers are all SP. The top SP is about 500 but the top closer is about 100 pts less. In general, a rough approximation is that the closers score: (10 x Saves)-50. I think that the closer scoring should be adjusted so that an elite closer is at least on par with a top 10 SP. This could be done by adjusting up saves (assuming an average closer has 25 saves it would need to be increased by 2 pts per save to make up 50 pts) or reducing the blown save penalty.
I think a more interesting issue if you are trying to address streaming is the setup men. Almost all closers are likely to be rostered and starting every day since there is always a potential for a save. Since there are 6 RP positions (and on average only 2.8 closers on each fantasy team), there are 3+ RP on each squad. Looking at the hold leaders though, the only score about 200 pt max and most less than 150. At that level of production, I am looking to stream any RP who happens to have a start (since at even 1 start per week the bad SP still average over 150 pts).
If the setup men or long relievers are credited with more for a hold (2 pts more would give the hold leaders about 40 more pts per season) or other adjustment. One option may be removing the penalty for runners already on base scoring (after all isn't that the fault of the bad SP?). Alternatively, give the setup man points for runners on base when they come in and then penalize for when they score (kind of under pressure bonus?).
In any event I think both closers and other reliever scoring could be increased. At the same time, it is mportant that a RP does not get a loss or blow a save. (A loss or BS is the fault of a RP. Often a SP is not the true cause of a team loss.)
On a related note, I noticed that there is different scoring for a SP win and RP win. How is this scored by the website if I have a combined SP/RP pitching. Does the site know whether the player was the official starter for the day and score accordingly? Alternatively, is it determined by whether I have the pitcher starting that day in the SP or RP position? I am still trying to figure out the rules as I go.
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Post by Quintin - Alexandria Beetles on Feb 3, 2011 18:06:18 GMT -8
Chris, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Buerhle's perfect game and that he scored the GF point, perfect game, no hitter, SO, IP, K and the W, not just the perfect game (25pts). I was amazed that he scored around 60-70 points for someone in one day. Roy H gave me 76 points on the day he threw his perfect game.
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Post by Quintin - Alexandria Beetles on Feb 3, 2011 18:09:58 GMT -8
If we want to further value hitters versus pitchers, I suggest simply reducing some hitter negative categories. I think the pitching scoring is fine all by itself.
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Post by Quintin - Alexandria Beetles on Feb 3, 2011 18:43:21 GMT -8
I took a quick look at RP versus SP. In general, the top 20 pitchers are all SP. The top SP is about 500 but the top closer is about 100 pts less. In general, a rough approximation is that the closers score: (10 x Saves)-50. I think that the closer scoring should be adjusted so that an elite closer is at least on par with a top 10 SP. This could be done by adjusting up saves (assuming an average closer has 25 saves it would need to be increased by 2 pts per save to make up 50 pts) or reducing the blown save penalty. I think a more interesting issue if you are trying to address streaming is the setup men. Almost all closers are likely to be rostered and starting every day since there is always a potential for a save. Since there are 6 RP positions (and on average only 2.8 closers on each fantasy team), there are 3+ RP on each squad. Looking at the hold leaders though, the only score about 200 pt max and most less than 150. At that level of production, I am looking to stream any RP who happens to have a start (since at even 1 start per week the bad SP still average over 150 pts). If the setup men or long relievers are credited with more for a hold (2 pts more would give the hold leaders about 40 more pts per season) or other adjustment. One option may be removing the penalty for runners already on base scoring (after all isn't that the fault of the bad SP?). Alternatively, give the setup man points for runners on base when they come in and then penalize for when they score (kind of under pressure bonus?). In any event I think both closers and other reliever scoring could be increased. At the same time, it is mportant that a RP does not get a loss or blow a save. (A loss or BS is the fault of a RP. Often a SP is not the true cause of a team loss.) On a related note, I noticed that there is different scoring for a SP win and RP win. How is this scored by the website if I have a combined SP/RP pitching. Does the site know whether the player was the official starter for the day and score accordingly? Alternatively, is it determined by whether I have the pitcher starting that day in the SP or RP position? I am still trying to figure out the rules as I go. SP verus RP scorin g needs to be considered within a weekly scoring format, not appearance to appearance. RP get more opportunities each week. RP points shouldn't be equal to SP from a game by game perspective.
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Post by Joe - Milwaukee Brewers on Feb 5, 2011 15:47:20 GMT -8
I still think setup men and holds need more value as their are so many changes each game ,and guys who lose the starting reliever role can still have value
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Post by Joe - Milwaukee Brewers on Feb 5, 2011 15:50:13 GMT -8
why is a relies win worth more than save? I think wins by a sp 12 save 10 win by reliever is 8
Blown saves should be -5 YOUR JOB IS TO GET A SAVE !get it ...should be equal to a loss....
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Post by Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters on Feb 5, 2011 16:41:17 GMT -8
After digging into the stats some, if I up the points for holds, then some of the better middle guys will end up being worth more than some of the lower level closers. Example - If holds increase by one point, then Aroldis Chapman, CBS' highest projected middle man, would become about the 22nd highest projected true RP (Not counting SP's with RP eligibility).
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Post by Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders on Feb 8, 2011 17:48:57 GMT -8
Chris, did RH get 25 pts for the PG and 15 pts for the No hitter?
Mike or Jack, I asked Chris about receiving points for stranding runners. That isn't an option to choose. It's not a bad idea to remove the negative for allowing inherited runners from scoring. It is a fine line to walk when your coming in w/ the bases loaded and no outs.
I'm fine leaving holds at 2pts. I don't think that blown saves should be -5 rather than -3. If you get the BS and the loss (-4pts), that's already -7pts.
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Post by Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders on Apr 6, 2011 19:07:21 GMT -8
For next year, I'd like to see us get rid of the -0.5 point for inherited runners scoring. Unless they start awarding points for not allowing them to score.
I'm fine w/ leaving the game finish point out. I actually think that it lowers the value closers, and not as much, the set up guys. If the GF point is turned back on, it will only award the teams that horde closers. It slightly evens the playing field.
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