Scoring?

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

I look at the way we give a player points for a hold ,yes 2 points but also feel a guy who comes in to finish a game yet not close should get the same 2 points also.

quality start is also something that is a category that could be an asset instead of a no decision in a great pitched game you get something for the hard work.

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

"I look at the way we give a player points for a hold ,yes 2 points but also feel a guy who comes in to finish a game yet not close should get the same 2 points also."

I would agree with this one if we could not award the two points to closers. Closers already get tons of points. They don't need another 60-80 points a year.

Joe is this two points only for a winning team pitcher who finishes a game or for any pitcher to finish a game?

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

As for QS, RA Dickey has 21 this year. If 3 points for a QS, would you want to add another 63 to his total? He's already got 20 more points than Miguel Cabrera.

I'd say no to this one.

[Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters]

The only way to add a point for games finished and not have extra point for closers (or SPs for that matter) would be to also make saves and complete games worth one point less.

As far as quality starts, I really don't like that stat personally. A starter who gives up 3 runs in 6 innings should not be rewarded. That's a 4.50 era. Not exactly "quality" IMO. Most pitchers who get a QS end up with a win or no decision anyways, so they don't need any more points. And the ones who lose, well, they should have pitched even better - or they're offense should have picked them up. That's my opinion anyways... If there is enough interest in adding points here, though, we can put it to a vote.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

I mean a guy who finishes a game gets the points...NON CLOSER if possible.

Why give points for a hold?Which I am fine with just that we need to share the wealth since roles change a lot too....You can have 6 relievers get a hold a game[Raleigh had the Royals guys and they would get all hold points which is ridiculous they all get ]

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

My opinion is that we do need to have some increased scoring for both SP and RP. Personally I like the QS stat and 3 points seems reasonable. I have had good starts end up with almost neglible points and this would at least make up for that. If a player blows up, they don't get a QS anyway and suffer the consequences.

My feeling is that RP are really not worth the bother. I think that increasing the hold stat to 3 points would at least add some predictability since you know the RP role. My preference, however, would be to keep the Hold stat at 2 points and eliminate 2 RP per team (at least). The 5th and 6th relief pitchers are simply a roll of the dice which eliminates the strategic element to luck.

We also have 1 or 2 stats (RL maybe) that do not update until the next day. Is there any way to account for the stat in a way that is visible immediately?

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

I hate having - points for INHERITED RUNS SCORED!....

If you come in a game 1st and 3rd no outs and your job is to to get the save and CONCEDE A RUN for an out why in the world would you penalize????THAT IS WHAT A RELIEVER IS ASKED TO DO and we want to negatively score it.....

also do you realize the hold is a joke if you are in a 6-0 game and give up 5 runs and you get a hold?.....

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

I agree with Joe on IRS. I also think this is one of the stats that are retroactively added each day.

In terms of QS, I am in favor of 2-3 points. Holds should get points, but no more than 2-3.

[Paul - Hanover Headhunters]

im for eliminating rps as well. i also have wondered if two start pitchers had their starts averaged together what that woupd look like scoring wise? this would eliminate the urge to pick up a scrub for the sake he has two starts.

[Quintin - Alexandria Beetles]

i'm for eliminating all negative points. really...

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

I also don't like the "Inherited Runner Scoring" negative 0.5 points either. Unless we got positive points if they don't score.

Joe, I'm pretty sure that a guy can't get a hold with a 6 run lead, unless he pitches 3 consecutive innings? I'm pretty sure the reasons for giving a hold are similar to a save, except its for the middle of the game.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

nope...you can have 5 holds in a game and also a guy gets a hold with no restriction if he holds the lead.....
its a dumb rule but yes you can give up 5 runs in an inning and still its a hold....

[Paul - Hanover Headhunters]

i like the idea of eliminating negative points as well.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

ditto!

[Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters]

Holds do currently score you 2 points, but I believe they don't get added in until the site resets.

I am ok with eliminating the negative points for IRS. There are some negative points that I think need to remain - losses, K's for batters, CS, etc. although I could be persuaded to lower them - say to -.5 per CS or -.5 per GIDP. Something minimal like that.

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

I would have jumped on the eliminate negative points before I joined this league, especially for SO. It took me a while to recognize the difference it made, and eliminating it could have a drastic effect on the league keepers and lineups. The Mark Reynolds of the world would suddenly go from a maybe/maybe not keep at $7 to a definite keeper. I would hate to see my players losing value because of a rule change.

I do like the CS, but .5 seems more appropriate. As it is there are some top basestealers that have little to no value now. It could add in an interesting element. I actually like some of the odd penalties like GIDP for bad plays.

Also note, that I still do not agree with a sacrifice bunt scoring 1 pt while a sacrifice fly is not awarded the same pt. With a lot of sac flies , the batter is simply following orders to move runners. In addition, you do not always get an RBI due to sac fly. I assume that if a squeeze play occurs the bunter gets a point for a sacrifice and an RBI.

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

Sept 10, 2012 18:49:13 GMT -8 Joe - Milwaukee Brewers said:

nope...you can have 5 holds in a game and also a guy gets a hold with no restriction if he holds the lead.....
its a dumb rule but yes you can give up 5 runs in an inning and still its a hold....

Yes, you can have multiple holds per game (from multiple pitchers), but you can't give up 5 runs and get a hold.

Wiki says,

A hold (abbreviated HLD, H or HD) is awarded to a relief pitcher who meets the following three conditions:
1. Enters the game in a save situation; that is, when all of the following three conditions apply:
(a) He appears in relief (i.e., is not the starting pitcher); and
(b) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(c) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(i) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and maintains that lead for at least one inning
(ii) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck
(iii) He pitches effectively for at least three innings.
2. Records at least one out
3. Leaves the game before it has ended without his team having relinquished the lead at any point and does not record a save.

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

I like the negative points the way it is, except for the Inherited runners scoring. Unless they get points for them not scoring.

I think in the 2012 preseason, we adjusted the scoring just right. Like adding the negative .5 for a BB by a pitcher. Lowering the negative points for a loss from -6 to -5.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

a loss at -5 is steep....you lose a game 1-0 or 10-0 and both get the same -5 that is not fair.
That goes back to the quality start that compensate for that.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

Holds are given to a pitcher on cbs for holding the lead,regardless of score.
Example I had Santiago Castilla and The other Giants reliever and they both got holds in a game that was 6-1.

[Doug - Tatooine Tusken-Raiders]

You can probably get a hold or save with a five run lead. But not by giving up 5 runs. I'm pretty sure that's impossible unless the pitcher last three innings for a save.

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

Any final decisions? The main issue that there was a general consensus on was eliminating the penalty for inherited runs scored. Quality start was 2nd biggest issue (with multiple opinions). RP scoring seemed to be addressed by reducing the # of RP on the roster (therefore negating need for major changes).

[Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters]

I have eliminated the negative points for inherited runners. I have not yet made a final decision on QS, but will review all of the input, and simulate the scoring with some of the proposed changes to see how it will play out. After that, I'll put something in writing. Hopefully that is within a couple of days.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

I still like QS since you can pitch great and not get the w a token for the performance is a nice reward even say 3 pts?....

blown save?...and a loss a rp can take a beating...too harsh...should almost penalize a player for 4 k's in a game hitting then

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

Thanks for putting the new schedule up and rules, etc.

As to scoring & Joe's comment - getting hit with both a blown save and a loss is quite a penalty. Blown save should be kept, but maybe a relief loss should be scored less than a starter loss.

I also like some bonus for a QS. It is not a perfect stat, but too often a good (not great)start still ends up a near 0 points. I like 3 pts.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

QS is a stat that I look at and see a lets say Halladay leave with a 3-1 lead and then gets a nd since the bp blew it..He loses the 10 for the win but really deserves a few points for the qs[which is a mlb category]

[Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters]

A player who k's 4 times in a game is penalized, with a -4. Relief Losses are only worth -4, as opposed to -5 for a starter. I would be ok with changing a relief loss to -3.

[Chris - D-Town Diamond Dusters]

A quality start is something I really struggle with, personally. By definition, a quality start is 6 or more innings, with three or less earned runs. While 6/3 may not happen all that frequently. when it does that is a 4.50 ERA. Not good. Is 6 innings and 3 er better than 9 innings and 4 er? The latter wouldn't be scored as a QS. Now, I do personally feel that the scoring system in place is set up to still be beneficial to a pitcher who loses, yet pitched well.

Joe, in your example above with Halladay, lets say he went 7 innings, gave up 6 hits, 1walk, 1homerun, 1 earned run, and struck out 6. He would still get 7.5 points for that outing. Throw in 3 points for a QS and he'd be at 10.5.

Thats a little too much, in my opinion. I suppose I would be willing to go to 1 or 2 points for a QS, but 3 I think is too many, when pictchers are already rewarded for pitching well.

Just for fun, here is a snippet from Wikipedia on QS:

In July 2000, Mark Mulder went 6 2/3 innings, gave up 15 hits and nine runs — but only two were earned, so that was classified as a quality start.
In June 1997, Randy Johnson struck out 19 in a complete game but allowed four runs. That was not a quality start.
In July 1982, Mike Scott allowed seven hits and walked five in six innings, didn’t strike out anybody, gave up seven runs, but only three of those were earned. Quality start.
In April 1974, Gaylord Perry went 15 innings and allowed four runs. Not a quality start."

[Mike - N.C. Pine Tar Sluggers]

I was not aware of the greater than 3 run rule. I had assumed that a QS increased allowable runs with IP increasing over 6 (using ERA or something similar). As much as I dislike getting fewer points for an average start, I would likely be even be more disappointed if I had Randy Johnson or Gaylord Perry. 3 runs in 6 innings seems OK to me, but the player would pitched 8 innings and allowed 4 runs did better.

Is there simply a way to give say +1 for 7 IP, +2 for 8 IP, and keep the CG bonus. Alternatively, 9 IP could be +3 and the CG bonus to +2 to avoid a 9 IP extra inning game from getting no bonus. It does not measure how well the start weny, but if a team keeps a pitcher in for 7 or 8 innings, they are certainly doing their job for the night well enough to get 1 or 2 extra points, especially in today's game of specialty RP being implemented almost every game.

[Joe - Milwaukee Brewers]

I guess the question is what position should have the most weight in the league?...and the least?
If we want pitching and hitters to equalize then pitching needs more stats since bum pitchers get less than 200 pts but bum hitters are over 200 pts....